The Upside-Up Marketing Podcast
This sort of marketing, however, is "upside-down" and the good news for you is that there is another way.
I call it "Upside-Up Marketing", and it starts with understanding the people you want to work with and creating offers they actually WANT to buy.
This makes marketing much easier, and definitely takes away that ick.
In this podcast I take my experience from my background in psychology and behavioural sciences and combined with my 20+ year career in market research, to help you create offers people actually want to buy, and share them in a way that feels good both to you AND to the people who might buy them.
All over a nice cup of tea 😊
The Upside-Up Marketing Podcast
Nail Your Messaging, Cut Your Hours: How Smarter Marketing Saves You Time - with Jerry Potter (Ep#22)
Most online business owners aren't struggling because they're not working hard enough – they're struggling because they're saying the right things, but at the wrong time.
When your marketing doesn’t connect with where your audience actually is, you have to hustle twice as hard for half the results. But when you nail it, everything shifts – more leads, more sales, and more freedom to actually live your life.
In this episode of The Upside-Up Marketing Podcast, I'm joined by Jerry Potter to explore how getting your messaging spot-on is the one of the key elements to growing your business without growing your working hours.
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MENTIONED IN THIS VIDEO:
I highly recommend checking out Jerry’s resources here:
👉 Watch his YouTube here: www.youtube.com/@mrjerrypotter
👉 You can sign up for Jerry’s newsletter by going to https://donebylunch.co
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🧡 Enjoyed this episode? Share it to your social media and tag me @orangesheepkatie! https://youtu.be/8ogYxQVyz_g
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When you’re ready, here are three ways I can help you get faster results:
SUBSCRIBE to "The Upside-Up Marketing Podcast here on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts
DOWNLOAD your "Ideal Client Anti-Avatar" to help you focus on the things that DO matter, forget the things that don't - and how to tell which is which: www.orangesheepresearch.co.uk/anti
WORK WITH ME: Go deeper with me 1:1 to create "Perfect Fit" offers and content – if you're ready to say goodbye to having to work so hard for every sale, and let your content and sales pages do the heavy lifting for you so you have people in your DMs already pre-sold on the idea of working with you, work in depth with me as we craft your magnetic message and create an offer that (pretty much!) sells itself – connect with me on LinkedIn www.linkedin.com/in/katie-spreadbury and send me a message for the details!
***Please bear with me as I migrate systems and update the tech in my business! There will be straight-up links to everything soon but for now don't be afraid to send me a message on socials, I promise I won't bombard you with DMs trying to convince you to buy, or "just checking in to see if you've had any more thoughts..." - that's not my style. At all. *****
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Connect with me on socials:
➡️LinkedIn (the best place to find me): https://www.linkedin.com/in/katie-spreadbury
➡️Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/orangesheepresearch
➡️Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/orangesheepkatie
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TIMESTAMPS ⏱️
00:00 Introduction
00:41 Meet Jerry Potter: High Leverage Marketing Expert
02:46 The DATE Framework: Stages of Client Relationships
05:55 Applying the DATE Framework to Social Media and Podcasts
13:27 The Done by Lunch Philosophy
19:01 Final Thoughts
You can download your complimentary guide to "Three Techniques to Validate Your Offer Before You Launch" here: https://www.orangesheepresearch.co.uk/validate
Find me on socials!
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YouTube
If someone you'd never met before walked up to you in the street and asked you to marry them, how likely is it you would say yes and yet we put out content expecting people who have never heard from us to spend money and buy from us. Sometimes a lot of money. Matching what you are saying to where your ideal client is in their journey of discovery with you. It is so, so important to making that connection, fostering that relationship, and ultimately getting sales. My guest today is here to tell us all about that, the different stages of the relationship, what we should be saying at each, and also how we can harness this to build a business that allows us to make more money and less time so that we can be done by lunch. Today I'm thrilled to be welcoming Jerry Potter as our guest. Welcome to the Upside Up Marketing podcast. Using marketing to persuade people to buy your thing is hard, icky, and not an effective use of your time. It's an upside down way of doing things. Introducing upside up marketing, helping you create offers people want to buy and share them in a way that feels good. All over a nice cup of tea.
Katie Spreadbury:Welcome to the Upside Up Marketing podcast, and this week I am delighted to have Jerry Potter with us. Uh, Jerry, would you like to tell everyone a bit about yourself?
Jerry Potter:Uh, sure. I, um, my, my main obsession, my brain's main obsession I've discovered is doing things in the highest leverage way possible in our businesses. And so now I help other people do that as well. There's a lot of low leverage ways to do things in entrepreneurship, which lead to burnout, and I primarily do that through YouTube and podcasting because the biggest thing we need in our business before we can kind of go. Ah is consistent lead generation and audience growth, so primarily YouTube and podcasting, which I love and I, my biggest mission is to help people finish, like help people get their business out there before they burn out.
Katie Spreadbury:Brilliant. And for context for everyone listening, um, Jerry is the reason I have a podcast. If it wasn't for his teaching, I probably would never have bothered'cause it sounded like so much hard work and he really broke, broke it down and made it something that was not only doable, but something I actually did. So. So, yeah, I thought it'd be great to get you on, Jerry, to talk about some of the ideas I've learned from you over the years of working with you that I think would be really, really useful for the listeners of this podcast. And, um, one of the things we talk about a lot on this podcast is communicating with our ideal clients and making sure we're getting our messaging right and things like that. And one thing that I learned from you specifically was about how. Different people are hitting our content at different stages and those people need different messages. Um, and I think that's something that'd be really useful to share with listeners. So, um, you've got your date framework, I think you call it.
Jerry Potter:Mm-hmm.
Katie Spreadbury:you for you to explain a bit about that and how it sort of helps you the right people at the right time with the right message.
Jerry Potter:Yeah. Well, one of the most challenging things in marketing and with our messaging is you can't always control when somebody's going to hear something. So if all of a sudden you're launching this$10,000 product right after someone signed up for your email list, or right after someone decided to follow you on Facebook or Instagram and you're like, Hey, last chance$10,000. And they're like, I. Barely know you, right? That's gonna fall on deaf ears and on the social media side, which is when I develop this framework, they'll, they won't engage, and then the algorithms will basically stop showing them your stuff. So we have to think about different people in different places. And so the Date framework is an acronym. Uh, it stands for Discovery, acquaintance Talking and Enchanted. And the short version is. In the beginning, somebody discovers us. That's what we want, right? But we have to talk to them like they don't know who we are yet. They don't like us, they don't trust us like they are. We are brand new to them, and so we kinda have to earn their trust or at least a little bit of likability before we can start having the next conversation. The second stage is a, which is for acquaintance, and I look at acquaintance, kind of like, you know, you and I are both parents. I kind of look at it like the, the parent you see across the parking lot at school pickup, and you're like, Hey. Bill will, I think you work in real estate, right? So at this stage, the customer kind of knows who you are, kind of knows what you do. They don't know your inside jargon, they don't know your, you know, frameworks. They don't know any of that stuff. So again, we don't want to bombard them with that yet. The third phase I call the talking phase, and this is where the conversation actually starts with you and your future client or customer. Now, it could be an actual conversation like you're emailing back and forth, or you got on a call or you're DMing, or in some cases if you use content marketing like Katie does with her podcast. I'm sitting here listening to her podcast and I'm kind of nodding along to what she's saying because I agree with it. That is that conversation. I am now talking to Katie. She doesn't know it yet. She might be weirded out by it, but I am now talking to Katie. So, so that's the talking phase. And then the last phase, uh, the e in date I call the enchanted phase. And this is where they're pretty much like, man, they're great and I'm. I'm probably gonna buy from them at some point, right? We've all kind of come across somebody and they're like, oh, next time they do this, or next time I'm at the store and they see this product, like, I'm, I'm, I'm pretty much gonna get that. And at this point, obviously they know us, they like us, they trust us. They may love us. You know, I, I sort of equate it to, at this point, they're like, I'm gonna ask that person out on that date. And sometimes they're just waiting for. Uh, an offer to come out the right offer or, you know, the opportunity to be right. So, but once somebody is enchanted, it's kind of like our sale to lose at that point.
Katie Spreadbury:Amazing. And, um, do we deal with it with, like, for example, this podcast, might find it and it is the first time they've seen me,
Jerry Potter:Mm-hmm.
Katie Spreadbury:time, you know, I share it with my email list. These people might have been following me for years and they're listening to it as well. How do we serve the needs of both audiences through one bit of content?
Jerry Potter:Yeah, it's a little bit different depending on the type of content, because obviously if this show is going the way that you want, you have new people every time. And then you also have loyal people that have binged every episode, right? And they're like, okay, what's Katie gonna say? Now I can't wait to to listen, so I. When I developed the date framework, it was actually designed for social media because we had this unique opportunity on social media, which still exists, where if you were making short form videos, so that could be tiktoks reels on Facebook and Instagram, YouTube shorts, uh, vertical videos, under two minutes on LinkedIn, they can reach people who don't know who we are yet. So when we made those, we would talk to people, uh, in that way. And the important thing when somebody doesn't know you yet is you have to give value. That's how we earn. The no, like trust factor, right? You can't just come out and be like, Hey, I've got this$10,000 offer, right? So, so you start by giving value. Then in the acquaintance phase on social media, that usually will fall in the feed posts. Somebody's decided to follow you at this point, they kind of know what you're about. So you can talk to'em a little bit differently once they kind of get into that, um, that specific acquaintance phase. And with that, I kind of look at it as. You know, this is where you wanna start to shift some of the major beliefs around what you do. Uh, you know, what you offer, different things like that. So it's not the moment that you are going to, again, change everything that they know and think, but you wanna at least start talking about it. And you also wanna start talking about the what and why of your solution, not necessarily the how.'cause again, you're just trying to get them to open up to it. The main goal in that acquaintance phase is to get them. Talking to you. Uh, and so that's why you start talking about these things so that they wanna know more, they wanna reach out, they want to book a call, they want to reply to an email, different things like that. Um, talking phase is all about talking, right? Um, this is where somebody has already, you know, decided like they know what you do, they know what you offer. They may not know. All of the details, but they at least know enough that they're kind of like, okay, yeah, this is one of the options I'm considering is kind of the way to look at it. And then enchanted, it's all about making good offers. So on social media, you can do like discovery and short form videos, feed posts I look at as the acquaintance content. Um, you know, Instagram stories, Facebook stories, uh, in the comments section, those are obviously all talking. And then enchanted. Usually for most businesses, by then you're on a discovery call or you're moving to your email list or something like that. So it works well on social media. It's a little more challenging when you're talking about a podcast episode, and so I. With this, I sort of draw on the way that I did it as a radio personality where when I was a morning presenter, we had to assume some people knew who we were, some people didn't every single time. And so in your pod, we'll use your podcast as, as the example. Um, you always want to be giving value. Um, you always want to be shifting beliefs. You don't want to be using too much inside jargon or frameworks unless you take the time to explain it. So we're sort of taking the same things that we're talking about that take somebody through a buyer journey. We are just not. You know, like we're not assuming somebody already knows, like in my world, that somebody already knows what the date framework is. And so the good news is with longer content like this, even though your episodes are really succinct, although I might be making this one too long right now, I don't know. But even though your episodes are really succinct, they, you know, they do like when somebody is willing to spend that much time with you, you can kind of take them through all of the phases in one place. And so the main goal is to provide value to the new people. Don't alienate, uh, the new people by, you know, using things. They don't know what you're talking about unless you explain them.
Katie Spreadbury:That's great advice and. Uh, yeah, I see what you mean. Like when you've got the more time with the content, you can go through the phases. Just make sure you don't leave people behind and bring people with you. Um, one thing that I talk about a lot is the importance of being specific
Jerry Potter:Mm-hmm.
Katie Spreadbury:that are listening or reading or watching, whatever, know that you are talking to them. Um, do you think that this applies equally at every stage of the framework or is this something that you know, is sort of. You're super specific to get people in and then as you move on, you can get vaguer or the other way round. Maybe you bring them in on quite a vague premise, but then as you get them along the, hate the word funnel, but you know what I mean, if I say it,
Jerry Potter:Yeah, I.
Katie Spreadbury:that's when you're getting more and more specific as to this is, you know who this is actually for.
Jerry Potter:Yeah, I'm glad you said funnel, so I didn't have to. Um, I think that, uh, I think, you know, you do kind of look at it, you know, if you're thinking about the date and them coming along and you're courting them, you do start with a wider pool at the top, and then you get more narrow. And so I think in the very beginning, like in that discovery phase, you don't wanna necessarily be saying things that completely rule people out that might be a good fit Now. That being said, I'm all with you on specificity and sometimes the more specific you can be. People know exactly who you're talking to, so I don't want to say, oh, in the beginning you should feel like you're serving everybody. But one of the things that we talk about when you get to the Talking in the Enchanted phase, these are great opportunities to then share kind of your values, your why, what you are about, because often those are the things that make somebody. Enchanted with you, right? Because they all of a sudden go, yes, I agree with that, or I'm on this same mission, or, yes, we're both trying to run businesses as parents and it's challenging, or whatever it might be.
Katie Spreadbury:Yeah, that makes sense. So you bring them in. I guess you are almost bringing them in by showing them that you solve the problem they have, and then as they go through, you're showing them how you solve it and the values you have and the sort of person you'd be like to work with. And that's when you're sort of, I guess, filtering out the people that wouldn't be the right fit for the uh, offer.
Jerry Potter:Yeah, there's been, um, for years now, they've shown that younger generations are more willing to spend money on a company or a business where their values are aligned than one, that they're not aligned. And so it can create incredible loyalty. It can, I. Definitely fast track that enchanted moment by sharing our values and, and different things that we're about. And I know if you're a brand new entrepreneur, this is exactly how I was. I was like, well, I don't want anyone to not like me. Plus I'm a recovering people pleaser and I, and I have to earn a living and, you know, all of those things. But you really will build more. Loyal people in your world by leaning into some of that stuff and how controversial you wanna get. Like if you want to get into politics, that works for some people, but it doesn't have to be that sometimes people just bond over a love of, of, like, I have a, a friend who's a personal brand photographer and she talks about how much she loves Oreo cookies all the time, and people connect with her over that. So it doesn't have to be, you know, this huge like controversial stance.
Katie Spreadbury:Amazing. Um, one of the things that this, getting this messaging right, making your marketing more effective. Thereby, meaning you don't have to spend so much time on it. Potentially. I'm segue in here to,
Jerry Potter:Mm-hmm.
Katie Spreadbury:spot on, getting, getting the messaging to the right people at the right time, making your marketing more effective, how does this, um, help you with this? And yeah, if you want to throw in a bit there about what the done by Lunch theory is, approach is then uh, that'd be great too.
Jerry Potter:Yeah. Well, and thank you for bringing that up because done by lunch is not something that I often talk about in the discovery phase because it's kind of like, it, it, it, it actually can be alienating. Some people say, I don't wanna be done by lunch, or, must be nice. I could never be done by lunch. You know, um, people who love what they do, they're like, I love working. I wanna work all the time, but. The idea, the the Done by Lunch philosophy. And we call it that because the idea is that you can build your business out of high leverage assets like podcasts and YouTube like we mentioned, so that you can run your business in half the time and be done by lunch and move on to other things that give you joy and purpose, that also give you joy and purpose. And so, um, this started because I stopped working after lunch on Fridays, and then I just sort of. Started removing more afternoons and now I, most days I don't work, um, after lunch. And I, at first I, you know, clients would ask like, how are you so efficient? How do you get so much done? And I would be like, oh.'cause I'm sort of an efficiency geek. I'd be like, oh, here's how I arranged my calendar and I batch create my content. And I realized a couple years ago, I was like, it's not that at all. It's'cause of YouTube. It's because of a podcast. It's about these high leverage assets. So the beauty of this is, let me give a a quick background on that. So all our businesses have three things. We need traffic, new people coming to us. We need conversion, a way for people to become our client's, customers, students, members. And then we need delivery, a way to deliver. Those products. And so the more of those three areas, traffic, conversion, delivery that we can replace with a high leverage asset or a high leverage way of making it happen, then the less we have to work or the more that we can grow. So sticking with YouTube and podcasting as example, if you build up a YouTube channel and a podcast over time and you know it becomes more valuable, the more content you put out. I have YouTube videos from seven years ago that are still getting views. I have YouTube videos from five years ago that are still in my top 10 most viewed videos. Every single week that bring me new audience members and, and new leads. And so it's very high leverage as opposed to what I used to do. Go into Facebook groups, chat with people, try and help them with their problems. And it works. It got leads, but it was a very low leverage way. So, so that's the overall idea there. So back to what you said about the date framework is when you build in this way and you put out these high leverage assets to take people through. Traffic to conversion to delivery. You essentially can meet people where they are. So someone can find me on YouTube and hopefully in the, whatever the first video they watched, they get value out of it. Then they maybe watch a couple of other videos and then they see me say. Um, you know, hey, do you want to learn more about this? I have this free masterclass, or I have this email series where we'll teach you all about podcasting and all they have to do then is go sign up for it, right? And I'm hands off. It's there, it's automated. I don't have to like. Have them join my email list and then in two months I'm like, Hey, is anybody interested in podcasting still? Maybe you were two months ago. Um, and then I have conversion mechanisms too, where people can sign up and join a program. So when you put this stuff out there, it builds it so that somebody can go from stranger to buyer. Literally in the same day. And I have people tell me that all the time. I'll see'em join one of my programs and I'm like, oh, cool, you know, great to meet you. Do you remember where you found me? And they're like, yeah, this morning in a YouTube video. And so it's this really cool feeling. So that's the idea behind high leverage. We set that stuff up. Now if you do one-on-one work, then you know the delivery part is not necessarily gonna be high leverage. But even if you add the other pieces. It still works incredibly. Um, if you do, let's say for conversion, you do discovery calls or sales calls. Again, if you're doing one-on-one discovery calls or sales calls, not necessarily high leverage, but there are other things you can do to make them more high leverage. Make sure that the, the people who get on the calls are actually the right people and different things like that.
Katie Spreadbury:Absolutely. And having that messaging spot on makes sure that that's happening and the right people are taking the actions at the stages you need them to.
Jerry Potter:I think when we first met, I told you, I was like, oh my God, I'm so glad you do what you do because people need this all the time. And when I was working primarily with people on social media, they'd come in and they're like, how do I get more views on Instagram? And I'm like, well, we, we gotta back up here. We have a messaging problem first, because when the messaging works, everything else works 10 times better.
Katie Spreadbury:Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, other thing, the other thing I picked up on there was you were saying at the beginning of that, that done by lunch doesn't resonate with everyone.
Jerry Potter:Yeah.
Katie Spreadbury:for example, if I look at done by lunch. I don't start work till like maybe nearly 10 o'clock'cause I have to drop the kids at school first, then I have to
Jerry Potter:Yeah.
Katie Spreadbury:and tidy up the mess they've made, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, done by lunch for me would be like working two hours a day. But I see that, and I think I flip that and put it into my own life for me that for me, you are done by lunch is working school hours. so it's
Jerry Potter:Yeah.
Katie Spreadbury:and ideally not all the school hours either. I'd like to have a bit of time to do other stuff as well during the day.
Jerry Potter:Yeah, get your own time in. Yeah, and I tell people, I'm like, if, if done by lunch is one to 5:00 AM for you, that's fine. Like whatever that is for you. I will say having a hard stop time, like for me it's lunch because I do love what I do and if that wasn't there, like if I tried to be. Done by two, then I would just keep working 2 15, 2 30 because I like what I'm doing. Um, but if I do done by lunch or I do done, by the time it's school pickup happens, which is kind of what I started with before lunch, then that really makes a difference and it forces us to get what we need to get done in that limited time. What is, is it Parkinson's law? Your work will expand to fill the time that you give it. And so by having a hard out, it really makes a big difference in how much you can get done.
Katie Spreadbury:Definitely. Oh, well, Jerry, that has been absolutely fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing all of that today. I like, I'm gonna, I've said this to a few of my guests. Actually, I'm gonna have to listen back to the episode myself so I can get my pen out and make all the notes, because every time I talk to you I learn so much more. But, um, yeah, um, if people want to find out more about you, follow you, anything like that, um, where can they find you? Where are they best to go?
Jerry Potter:Uh, if you want to find me on YouTube, you can just search for my name. Jerry Potter should come up. Uh, and if you want to, if, if you're already feeling like you're in the talking phase or enchanted at this point, um, I encourage you to join our Done By Lunch Entrepreneurs Newsletter. Uh, and you can do that@donebylunch.co. Done by lunch.co.
Katie Spreadbury:Lovely, and we'll put all those note, uh, all those links in the show notes. I love your emails. They're always, uh, always entertaining. Always entertaining
Jerry Potter:Good. Glad to hear it.
Katie Spreadbury:Oh, thank you so much, Jerry. Um, and, uh, yeah, I'm sure we'll be speaking again soon.
Jerry Potter:Sounds good. Thank you, Katie.
That was Jerry Potter, and I'm sure you will join me in thanking Jerry for coming on and sharing all that wisdom with us on the Upside Up Marketing podcast. I'll make sure I put the links that he, uh, mentioned in the show notes so you can go and check him out. Um, and I highly, highly recommend you go and check out his YouTube actually, it's really, really good. Um, actionable, excellent advice on how to build a more efficient business and. Nice short videos as well to the point he extends this philosophy to the way he interacts with his audience and clients as well. So, um, yeah, absolutely fantastic guest. I'm really loving having these guests on the podcast. Do let me know if there's anyone you would like to hear from or any topics you would like to hear. Um, and just a note for anyone watching on YouTube, if you are audio only, you probably wouldn't have noticed this, but I actually forgot to record the outro when I recorded that episode. So, uh, I'm recording it now like a couple of days before the episode's released and, um, I thought you might not notice if I put the same t-shirt on forgetting I was in a completely different location. So the background has changed completely. So if you spotted that, well done Eagle eyes. Um, that's it for this week. Make sure you hit subscribe so you don't miss any episodes we have. Um, I'm not sure what's coming up next week'cause I haven't written it yet, but the week after, we got another amazing guest where we'll be talking about, um, how to make the most of your networking in terms of learning about your people, improving your message and building your business. So, um, really, really looking forward to that. Make sure you hit subscribe and I will see you next time.
