The "Ideal Client Avatar" Era is OVER - 2025 is about speaking to REAL HUMANS (Ep#15)

The ideal client avatar is an outdated strategy that has no place in 2025. 
Most online business owners I have spoken to agree one thing: 2024 was HARD. Harder to sell, harder to get eyes on your content, harder to get engagement. But you know who didn't find it hard? The businesses who were marketing to REAL people.

In this episode of The Upside-Up Marketing Podcast I'm examining what this means, and how you can apply it to your business. 

👉 You can get your hands on the questions I ask new clients when onboarding that get me GOLDEN information for my marketing messages whilst also getting them excited to start working with me by sending me a message on LinkedIn or if you comment "QUESTIONS" below this video I will reply with the download link when it is ready! (I didn't get the tech set up around the resource before the time came to publish 🫣😄)

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YOU CAN WATCH A VIDEO VERSION OF THIS PODCAST ON YOUTUBE: https://youtu.be/xCubOtOEKUA

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MENTIONED IN THIS VIDEO:
🧡 Episode 11: "How to create content for your business that people actually WANT to read" https://youtu.be/Ne_QkRo2qGg
🧡 Episode 12: "Why most small business market research SUCKS - mistakes to avoid and what to do instead" https://youtu.be/edELk6BiM6c

🧡 "Unlock Your Audience" - my low-cost resource with 104 questions you can ask your audience to understand more about them (including if they are the right people for you) - and how to use the answers you get in your marketing: www.orangesheepresearch.co.uk/104questions

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🧡 Enjoyed this episode? Why not share the video to your social media and tag me @orangesheepkatie https://youtu.be/xCubOtOEKUA

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When you’re ready, here are three ways I can help you get faster results:

SUBSCRIBE to "The Upside-Up Marketing Podcast here on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts
DOWNLOAD your "Ideal Client Anti-Avatar" to help you focus on the things that DO matter, forget the things that don't - and how to tell which is which: www.orangesheepresearch.co.uk/anti
WORK WITH ME: Go deeper with me 1:1 to create "Perfect Fit" offers and content – if you're ready to say goodbye to having to work so hard for every sale, and let your content and sales pages do the heavy lifting for you so you have people in your DMs already pre-sold on the idea of working with you, work in depth with me as we craft your magnetic message and create an offer that (pretty much!) sells itself – connect with me on LinkedIn www.linkedin.com/in/katie-spreadbury and send me a message for the details!

***Please bear with me as I migrate systems and update the tech in my business! There will be straight-up links to everything soon but for now don't be afraid to send me a message on socials, I promise I won't bombard you with DMs trying to convince you to buy, or "just checking in to see if you've had any more thoughts..." - that's not my style. At all. *****

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You can download your complimentary guide to "Three Techniques to Validate Your Offer Before You Launch" here: https://www.orangesheepresearch.co.uk/validate

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Transcript

0:00

The age of the ideal client, avatar is over 2025 is going to be all about marketing to real humans. The narrative I've heard again and again in 2024 is that marketing is hard. It's getting harder. Sales are getting harder to come by. Everything's got more difficult. Even the big names have seen a huge drop in their annual revenue. But you know who didn't find it hard. The people that had absolutely nailed their messaging and we're talking to the real human. Um, I worked with a coach last year who has made more money than she's ever made before. In her life because of the way she does her messaging. And it's all about speaking to people. So today I'm going to be arguing that the ideal client avatar, is an outdated strategy that has served its purpose. And how in 2025, it's going to be all about talking to real humans. Uh, that will get you the best results. So if you're finding that what you were doing before, isn't working as well as it used to, or you just want to make sure that you get the best from your marketing in 2025. Keep on listening. Welcome to the upside up marketing podcast. Using marketing to persuade people to buy your thing is hard, icky and not an effective use of your time. It's an upside down way of doing things. Introducing Upside Up Marketing. Helping you create offers people want to buy and share them in a way that feels good. All over a nice cup of tea. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Hello, welcome to the upside up marketing podcast. I've got my cup of tea. It's quite chilly in a London stay where I am. Uh, heating, whacked right up and over. Got my favorite mug, my favorite cup of tea. Um, so yes, today we're going to be talking about ideal client avatars, but before we do, I have some news. And that is that I have. Um, I was going to say reluctantly, but I think it was time. I closed my Facebook group. It was called the upside up marketing movement. Or for those of you that have been in my world for a long time previous, it was how to be an ideal client magnet. And I just felt it had, like, he liked the idea of kind of avatar. It served its time. There were a whole number of reasons you can go and look at the post if you want, uh, in the group where I explain it. But, um, yeah. So if you remember, if that thank you so much for hanging out with me over on Facebook, I've moved most of my marketing to LinkedIn now. Um, one of the main things I want to do is focus more on this podcast and YouTube channel actually. So, uh, it's all for your benefit in the long run, but yeah, I was sad to see it go. It was where I started my business. It was where I got my first clients and it was a big wrench to say goodbye, but. It was definitely time. So that's my news out the way. Anyway. Um, and here's the content that you actually tuned in for? So, yes, on today's episode, I am going to be arguing that the ideal client avatar is dead. Okay, that sounds a bit morbid. I'm not suggesting you go out marketing to ghosts. And they're not known for their disposable income, but, um, what I mean is if you're still using the ideal client avatar, Worksheet that came with the last marketing course you did, or more likely you filled it in at the time, but now it's all in your head. If that's who you are still talking to in your content, if that's who you are still designing your office for, it's likely that you're missing one of the biggest leavers that you can pull in your business in 2025. Uh, two. Improve your marketing. And that's what I want to fix for you today. So, um, by the way, if you don't already know me, I'm going to read this bit because I've written myself a little bio. Um, I want to test out how it sounds when I read it out loud. So I'm actually going to read it off the paper. With me. Um, yeah, if you don't know me. Uh, like I said, my name's Katie Spreadbury and I'm here to help you move from having to work hard for every sale to selling effortlessly through your content and sales pages. By helping you understand your ideal client at new depths. So your written words do all that heavy lifting for you. My background in market research and psychology make me uniquely placed to help you get that next level. Understanding. I might almost 10-year experience of running my own business. It really been that long. Um, helps you apply that to what you're doing in your sales. Um, and marketing to get you more clients and help you have more impact on the world. Still some refining to do, but that's me in a nutshell. Um, so anyway. That set the scene with what an ICA is. I'm going to use ICA and avatar interchangeably to mean ideal client avatar. What an ICA is, how it came about, how it took off and why now I think the concept has served its purpose and needs to be laid to rest. So quite simply an ICA is an outline of, imagine me person who would be the most perfect person for you to work with. Um, typically an avatar involves, um, imagining what characteristics the person has, the age, their job, the industry, they work in, uh, their living and family situation that, um, often beyond that, to their hobbies, their values, what they watch, what they read, where they shop the car, they drive the age of their kids, the name of their cat sometimes. The advice to get specific can get taken to extremes. Now. The concept of avatars is something that's been around in marketing for a long time and don't get me wrong. I have taught avatars in the past. It was a big part of my business about four years ago, like a huge part. And at the time. Um, It did serve a purpose. So the concept of avatars has been around for a long time. Um, typically. Among large organizations who have a huge customer base and who segment their marketing to customers based on the different personas. Um, to help them target different advertising messages at different people, things that are going to land with them. Um, so for example, Tesco might have. Busy family provider, which is parents aged 30 to 45 with school-aged children who prioritize value and convenience frequently use online delivery. They might have the health conscious professional. Um, who values high quality, fresh organic foods prepared to spend a bit more. Um, and there might be another group, the bargain seeking retiree who is budget conscious loads of bank brands. They trust. Does their shopping in store? And. Enjoy taking their time about that. Each of these is going to need a marketing strategy with a different focus. Um, for family providers, meal deals, easy cook, you know, convenience, things that are still healthy. The health conscious professional they've want to be showcasing the organic ranges, sharing recipe ideas, inspiring them to try new cuisines. Um, the retirees may be emphasizing the value and reliability of the own brands, um, playing on that brand loyalty and also emphasizing the services that are. Available in the store to make their lives easier and more pleasant. So, you know, each of those would be a different avatar, a different persona. Um, and, uh, advertising would be targeted accordingly. Now the big brands have the budget and the ability to add a lot of personalization for their, to their marketing. And they have a lot of data as well through things like loyalty cards and stuff like that in a lot of cases. Um, so they can target specific messages to each segment. However, the idea really took off in the online business world around the late 2010s, early 2020s. Um, As the online market became more crowded and it became clear that marketing to everyone. Um, wasn't going to cut it anymore. So. Afterward, if you're the only restaurant in town. Everyone is going to dine with you. But as soon as even one more opens, you've got competition and you need something to make people choose you over the other one. So defining a niche, defining a ideal client with a specific set of characteristics or values or whatever. Uh, became the way to do that because if there's only one or two business coaches out there. You pick your business coach, they're going to have a good handle on the market. As soon as there are lots of pieces of coaches. Um, you might have to say, I would say, okay, I'm a business coach for personal trainers and then personal trainers will gravitate towards the one that has specialists in the industry. But we're getting to the point now where there are so many business coaches for personal trainers or whatever, that that is not enough anymore. It's not enough just to be in the industry, in the niche of the person that you want to serve. You have to go further than that I mean, it's still valid advice to pick a niche to be specific, and it is. More appropriate for some than others. I always say don't do it arbitrarily. Don't just randomly say, oh, I only work with people in this industry. If you have no. Prior connection, experience interest in that industry. I mean, I love my fitness and health and nutrition and things like that. But just because it's my hobby, I've no more qualified to help a business in that industry than I am a business coach, a graphic designer. A personal organizer, a, um, I'm trying to think of people I've worked with marketing coach. Whatever. Um, It makes no difference. They're all going to get the same results. So that's not something that I bring into my marketing. I don't bring in what industry they're in. Um, So. Yes. Things started to go a bit far, the advice to have an ideal client avatar. Went beyond niching down to sculpting and imagine me person and actually individual who'd be your perfect client. Even naming them. Um, then targeting all your marketing at that person. Again, for some people, this can be good advice. Some people find it very hard to write. Um, to their clients and sipping vagaries and, um, please chaise and, you know, sort of start. Really. Um, sounding quite vague and generic. If they're just writing to a faceless audience of people, some people find it really useful to have that imagined me person in their heads. And that might still be the case, but just knowing the vague things about them is not enough anymore. So more often what has happened more often than not was happening as people who've got hung up on irrelevant details. Uh, such as whether they have a cat. Uh, they waste a lot of time going around in circles about whether they want their ideal client to be the sort of person who read the guardian all the times. Not enough time on understanding what is actually going on for that person in real life. Um, because most of these avatars, you get a small box like to list. What's keeping them up at night. Um, what's their biggest goal. Uh, what else? What's the biggest struggling reaching that goal? Um, and you're just expected to figure that out and fill it in. Um, you know, how will they feel? Pleased, happy, excited, what haven't achieved the goal yet, because they haven't done the thing that I do. You know, It's very hard to get beyond that surface level. I filled in a lot of these ideal client avatar worksheets. But. I found that. At this level, I'm just writing down random stuff. And when you're just writing down random stuff, it's hard to feel that connection with it. It's hard to get excited about it. Cause you know, you just made it up in your head. So in an age of step-by-step cookie cutter. I do this and you will succeed marketing courses. It served a purpose to get students to narrow down who they were talking to so they could complete the other tasks throughout the course. but now you'll be on that stage. Aren't you really. Um, once you get beyond the, my services for everyone, focusing on our avatar could actually be holding you back. Now, let me tell you what I mean. In the age of market, over-saturation the cacophony of social media and the online world and the dawning of AI. The level most ICA is go into. It's not going to cut the mustard anymore. It's just not going to be good enough. It's not enough to simply focus on one narrow niche and rely on attracting people from that group they won't see you. Without doing this next step. And it's not enough. Just focus on the struggle. Are you sick of XYZ, ed, buy my things, start messaging that that leads to. If you've devised your ideal client from your own perspective. Then all your messaging is going to come from your perspective too. Um, the real power comes from when you can flip that and do your messaging from their perspective, speak to them from where they are currently at. Now, I've talked about this in past episode, most recently, episode 13, which was. Um, how to create content that your audience actually wants to read. Um, so check out that one after you finished this one, if you're interested in hearing more about that. Um, but yeah, th that flipping the perspective thing is really, really important. And you'll relate to this. If you've ever filled in. Those. Avatar worksheets. I never looked at it again. It's not enough to have just done the work and written it down. As a business owner and service provider, your most powerful messaging is going to come from feeling that connection with your ideal client, from feeling that empathy and understanding from sitting with them in the struggle and where they need it and inspiring that action, that's going to lead to success. It's hard to get that emotional about someone you've completely made up. So all that leads to what I call disconnected messaging disconnected messaging is when you think you're talking directly to your most ideal perfect fit client. But they're not listening because they haven't noticed, they haven't noticed that what you're saying is ideally perfectly relevant to them that the tips are sharing actually going to solve the issues that they have. They haven't realized that because in reality, you're talking at them. Um, most likely everything you're saying is perfectly valid. Um, from my offsetting, the logic holds and you really have figured out why they're struggling, but you're talking to them from your own point of view. And in 2025 people, haven't got time to figure out how your point of view relates to them. They've got lives to date and they've got to lead them while being bombarded by information from all angles. You have to take it from their point of view, then show them how that relates to your point of view. In order to get their attention. So, how do we do this? What do we need to do instead? We still needs to. Uh, we still need to target our message at someone don't. We. We're not just shouting it into thinner. But if it's not an ideal client avatar, who is it? Look the concept of having a perfect person for your offers. As I've mentioned is a valid one. It is still helpful, but we have to stop getting hung up on the metrics that don't matter and focus on the ones that do. And we have to stop assuming. We know these people based on our own experiences and our own knowledge. Um, and. Start. Talking to the real person, the real human behind the avatar. Now, this is where it gets. Good. Through your marketing and your work, you have access to many, many people, tens, hundreds, thousands, maybe even millions. If you have a huge market. Um, who would be a good fit for your work? These are all real people. They're real humans. They have real lives that experiencing real problems and not in nice tidy, neat isolation. Like when you think about it logically in your head, but mixed in with all the other things they've got going on in their lives, all the other problems, they have to weigh up against it and prioritize what they want to solve first and everything else. That's distracting them along the way. Things they didn't even know were problems yet, but suddenly. Um, suddenly social media is telling them is a problem and they really should deal with this. So your content and marketing. Your offers and positioning needs to be talking to where these real people are at. So we need to start intentionally engaging with them to make a difference. That's how you'll attract, not just your ideal client, but your high impact, ideal client. The one who not only gets the best results from working with you, but who brings out the best in you as well? Um, they're not just the people who have the problem. Uh, so their branding looks napping is letting them down for example, but also the ones for whom you are the best person out there to help them fix it. So, what should you do? How would you do this? It's all very well me sitting here saying this, talk to the real human blah, blah, blah. But, you know, I see a lot of things out there, like this, just get more specific, just speak to their problem, go three levels, deeper on their problem. How do you do that? How, how, how this is how. So, like I say, you have access to a lot of people, a lot of real humans in your business, through your audience, through people you work with through people who are, um, you know, you network with et cetera. To move away from the ideal client avatar and bring the real human into it. Ask more questions at every touch point of your customer journey. Okay. From the moment they first discover you right through to getting to know you purchasing, working with you. And even after they're finished working with you. Um, ask questions all the way. Today, because this episode is focusing on marketing and messaging to create and sell your offers. Um, We're going to focus on the key groups of people to do that. But if you just take away that, ask more questions at every stage. If that's the only thing you take away from this episode today, I'll be happy. But focusing on marketing and messaging for your offers. There were three key groups of people that you need to be speaking to and getting input from, because these are the real people that you need your messaging to be talking to. So the first one. Is your audience. Okay. And by your audience, I mean, your followers on social media, the members of your Facebook group, the people on your email list, um, wherever it is that people can follow and keep track of you, the viewers on your YouTube channel, the listens to your podcast, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. These are the people that have put their hands up to follow you that have said yes, I'm interested. I want to know more. They're interested in what you do. Your research with this group is focused on two things. Okay. If you just go out to them and say, great, you're following me, what do you need from me? What do you want from me? That is not going to get you what you actually need that is going to get you. Um, a lot of really random stuff. Trust me. That isn't going to be that helpful for you. And I'll come onto why in a minute. Um, but yes, your research with this group needs to do two things. Number one. Figure out, whether you are drawing in people who are going to be a good fit for you. Um, and number two, what is going on for the ones who are a good fit notice? I didn't say what they need. I said, what is going on for them? Um, I've talked about this in a past episode. Um, it was the episode about why most small business market research sucks. But essentially people mostly. I don't know what they want. Don't know what they think. Aren't very good at articulating it. Um, and often what they want, isn't what they need. So just going back to people and saying, what do you want? Isn't going to get you anything that's going to sell. Probably. But invite conversations with this group pop out questions and polls on socials. Look at the responses you're getting to your posts and your emails, ask the sort of questions that determine with your audiences, the sorts of people you want to attract. And ask the sorts of questions that will give you an idea of what is going on from them and the problems you can help themselves. The dreams you can help them achieve the obstacles you can help them overcome. Obviously I've said two things there and you might be thinking, but if my. It by the first point that you implied, there might be people in my audience who aren't ideal clients. And then the second one you're saying, go and find out what's going on for them. Is there a bit of mismatch here? Well, yes, you need to be very careful when you are. Speaking with your audience about what they what's going on for them. What dreams they have, what problems they have, what obstacles they have, et cetera, et cetera. When you are. Looking at what that means for you and your marketing. Be very, very careful to focus on the responses from people that would make good ideal clients and not from those who would not make good ideal clients. Sometimes you will know. Who that is, and be able to do that. Sometimes that will be a lot harder. So take this sort of research with a pinch of salt sometimes. Um, use it as a basis for experimentation rather than going all in, in something you find from your market, from your audience research, if you are not sure whether the people you've spoken to actually fill on proper ideal clients are not okay. So, yes, just be careful there. Because when you start to follow. That pattern of asking your audience what they want. They tell you and you go out and you go, Ooh, that's not quite what I expected. Okay. I'll start to do that. Cause it sounds like it will sell and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You can be taken off, down a path that isn't the original path you wanted to go down. It's almost like you've, uh, like when the algorithm takes you down a black hole on social media and suddenly your feed is just full of cats and panders, which is all very nice, but it's not going to pay the bills. Not speaking from experience there. At all. It's um, you know, you've gone off on a tangent to what you actually wanted to achieve. And suddenly your. Doing everything for this random bunch of people that you've managed to amass on, on social media or on the internet, that aren't necessarily the people that you really feel passionate about serving, and aren't necessarily doing the things that really light you up and are your. Zone of genius to use an overused phrase. Um, it's just the things that the random people you amassed happened to need the most. And that's when, you know, you might have some initial success with that, but that's when people start to feel disillusioned with their business, um, start to, um, you know, get that feeling of wanting to burn it all to the ground. Get burnt out basically. And can't carry on with it because it's really, really hard to spend that much time because, you know, as a business owner, it's not like having a job, it takes up your whole. Being, you know, it's part becomes part of your identity, however hard you try and separate the two. So if you are, if you've gone down a path that doesn't feel aligned with you, that is going to be reflected in. How much you enjoy running your business and your longterm results. So it's really, really careful important to be careful when you're doing audience research to really make sure you're only. Listening to the results of people that you actually want to work with. Um, I wasn't note as well, this sort of ordinary audience research can be a really good way of, um, Testing who you want to work with of getting a gauge of that. Like a recent client of mine. We went into her audience research, um, But even we wanted to speak to a certain type of person. And, When we actually came to do the interviews, it became really clear really quickly that this particular type of person. Was not going to be well-suited to her methods of delivering her service at all. You know, it just, wasn't going to work. And we were very quickly able to, you know, we didn't. Speaking of to, I think to people. Pivot that and say, okay, that's actually not who we want. That's not speak to any more people like that. And let's move it this way a bit and speak to people who are in this situation, in this position. And that's where you get the gold. So that has saved her a lot of grief and a lot of time targeting the wrong people who would have come into her containers into her programs and then caused her loads of issues. Cause they would. She would have had to tell you to everything can do it differently from how she was doing it. And they wouldn't have ultimately been satisfied or got the results. And on the flip side, she would have had an awful lot more work than what she, what she would have with the, uh, New group of people that she's identified. So it's a really, really good way of doing that. Um, Oh, and I do also have, I should get better at remembering to just mention this and slide it in. Effort at this effortlessly. It's funny how much effort it takes to say the word effortlessly. I do have a low-cost resource to help you with ideas for questions. To ask your audience. Um, 104 of them to be exact. And, um, you can ask your social media audience, the people in your emails, you can drop them into conversation at networking. Things you can ask your audience. To learn more about them and then how you can use it in your marketing. It's called unlock your audience. And I'll pop a link in the show notes to that if you want. It is, it's a very local, low cost resource, but it's a really good one. And plus, because it's for your social media. It's like, say you put out one of these questions a week. That's two years worth of content for a Wednesday. Say. Sorted for you already. So. Extra bonus there. So that's the first group of people we're speaking to your audience. Although with the caveat of being careful, your differentiating between people in your audience who would be a great high impact, high impact, ideal client and people who wouldn't. The second group of people you need to be talking to. If you are going to move away from generic, ideal client avatars and start talking to real humans and getting real results. Um, are the people who nearly bought. But didn't. So you may have seen this. Advice before. Um, to, you know, speak to the people who didn't buy it and asked them why they didn't buy. Essentially after you finish a launch or a campaign. Send out an email to everyone who looked at the link, but didn't buy who DMD you to make an inquiry. Maybe even you even had a sales call with them, but they didn't end up going ahead. Um, get in touch with all of those people. Normally on the email marketing platforms, you can see who's clicked on the link. Um, So, you know, if, if you're not sure how to do that in your platform. Uh, Google it. I'm not an expert on all the platforms. It made a light it's in the, uh, report. Link activity report from that email. Um, But, yeah, you'll have some idea of who was interested, but didn't go to buy. So. Do not let the opportunity pass up. Uh, finding out exactly why they didn't go ahead and purchase. In the end, it might turn out. They weren't an ideal client for it. And actually it wasn't suited to them, which is great because it means your messaging is working at filtering those people out. Um, but it might be that actually the offer in theory is perfect for them, but there was something that stopped them from buying. Maybe they had a query or an objection that wasn't covered in your marketing. Um, there was a problem with the messaging and they didn't realize how well it was suited to them. Um, did they have another reservation about, um, whether they were going to get success or whether it was worth the money? Was the value not communicated effectively. Did they just forget? And you didn't remind them enough? You know, they saw an email about it meant to come back to it because you didn't send emails like three emails on the last day. They just forgot to go back to it. Um, whatever it is, is super, super valuable for converting people, just like them next time around and making sure that you optimize that messaging and that launch the next time you run, it it's even even better. Um, remember that it is possible unless you put a hard deadline in, like, if you, this offer closes at 12 noon on Friday, and if you get in touch with me after then you won't be able to buy it unless you put in a hard deadline like that. Just going back and ask them why they didn't buy. It might allow you to answer the objections they have and bring them into the program. So if you've got. An evergreen thing. That's always open. And you're just evaluating this after you've done a little push on. Uh, marketing for it or something. And there's no deadline there. This might actually convert some of them into clients, as well as there's another reason it's really, really worth doing it might have an immediate payoff. Um, Yeah. Always, always worth contacting them to find out why they didn't buy. Okay. The third group of people that you need to be getting feedback from, to move away from messaging to generic, ideal clients and move towards talking to real humans. Oh, The people that actually bought the offer. It's very easy once someone's in to just be like, oh yeah, brilliant onboard them and start working with them. But it's always, always worth, I would say this might even be the most valuable group of people would speak to. The people that bought the offer. So part of your onboarding process should always be asking them what made them sign up to the offer? The exact situation they're in the exact problems they're having that they're hoping will be solved. Even the exact bits of content that really spoke to them. These are the real people. They really signed up for your offer and finding out why. It means that you can replicate that and scale it up. Expand it to get more people in next time around who are just like them. Now, of course, now you're working with them. You'll be able to tell probably quite quickly whether they are this high-impact ideal client. You know, this perfect person that's going to. Really like be receptive to what you're working with them on. They're going to get the results. They're going to light you up. You know, it's going to be that perfect working relationship. You'll probably know quite quickly, whether they, one of those. Um, and you can really focus on the answers they gave in these on boarding questions. If it turns out they're not such an ideal client and actually they're proving a bit of a pain to be honest. And they're a bit of a drag to work with, and they're not doing the work and they're not showing up. Again, look at what you got from this onboarding interview. And look at the difference between the two, what is different between the people that are signing up and then not. Going for it, diving in and getting the result. And those that are because that will help you refine your messaging even further. You can, um, You know, stop talking to the things that brought in the people that weren't right for it and do more of the things that brought in the people that were right for it. Um, so. I know, because you're listening to this podcast that you are not the sort of person who's going to be like right now. It doesn't matter if they get the result. I've got their money. That's all that matters. And I just want to do my marketing. That's going to get people to give me their money. Um, I know that's not, you. Um, But just bear in mind that these people, um, when you bring people into your office who aren't right for it, that's when you start getting refund requests, that's when people start, You know, they probably not many people come out on social media and say, how about we 77? It was awful. But when they're talking to people at networking and things like that. Oh yeah. You worked with so, and so how was it? Oh, to be honest, it wasn't that great. But that's the kind of people that begin that sort of answer rather than, oh my gosh, it was amazing. It changed my business. It changed my life, whatever. So you don't want so many of them in your business and they're going to be a drag for you to work with as well. They're going to make you doubt your confidence in your office, your ability to get results. So yeah. Developing your messaging to. Put those people off and only bring in the people that are going to be really on fire in your containers. Is, um, the best is the way to go. And this is how to do it. Um, so with all that in mind, go out and have some conversations and the easiest, one of those probably to build into your business straight away and the most impactful one as well. Um, is that last one talking to clients when they join. Um, and of course, you're going to need to know what to ask. So you want to get this right? Because you're not only trying to get information for yourself here. This is the start of your relationship with this person. This might be the first conversation you've had. Face-to-face. So you want them to not only give you the information that you want, but you want them to leave that conversation excited to be working. With you looking forward to it. And, um, also. That you've not taken up too much of their time with like a 20 page questionnaire or something like that. So if you'd like my set of questions that achieve all those aims. Um, the, I asked my clients when they sign up with me. Uh, plus my tips on getting the best answers from them. As you ask it. Um, when you ask the questions, I have created a resource for you to share these. I will pop the link in the show notes, so you can go and grab yourself a, that. But yes, take that and plug it into your business today to really start to move the dial. So focus in on the messaging that is working, bringing in the right people, talking to the real humans and to figure out at the same time, potentially if you have any less than ideal clients Working with you to figure out what marketing messages to leave out, tone down, tweak change, um, and we'll just make sure you're attracting only those very best people. That is what is going to be the difference between businesses that succeed and businesses that do not the businesses that struggle in 2025. Because there is so much out there. Talking to the human, getting the specifics, getting the real things people are saying into your messaging is the thing that's really gonna make the difference because the vagaries, the. Platitudes the cliches that all just blending into the background now. And I haven't even touched on AI. I realized the, um, headline of this. Episode. Could make it sound like it's going to be about AI. This is an AI neutral episode. Okay. You can use AI to help you in your business. That's fine. I don't have a problem with that, but if you really want to stand out and you really want your messaging to cut through, you need to be getting original thoughts from real people because AI can only work on what is already out there in the world. And the thing that's going to make you stand out is the thing that's not already out there in the world. So talking to these real people is the thing that's going to elevate you above anything. That AI is churning out by all means. Once you've got that use AI to help you make your content, I'm not going to judge on that. Um, I don't particularly do it at the moment just because I'm not very good at it. I don't really know what problems to do, and it's not something I've particularly explored. I like the writing process to help me refine my own thoughts. But this is, yeah, like I say, an AI neutral episode, but. Talk to real people find out what's really going on. And that is how you will bring our business forward in 2025. Thank you so much for listening. Uh, do you hit subscribe? So you catch the next episode. Um, I've put these out every two weeks and, um, I would love to see you at the next one. And yeah, don't forget to grab your questions to ask your clients, um, link is in the show notes and I will. Get back to my cup of tea. I'll see you next time.